Braun PCS52 MOTOR PROBLEM

[ElTurco]

hello Braunists

I am new at this forum. I hope, you can help me, I have big problem.

Well, I bought a BRAUN PCS52 1 month ago and already start to renovate it.First of all, the belt was missing and my first mission is to find belt and did it. It works well after install the belt. I am not sure about the RPMs are correct (not measured yet) but seems ok.

Anyway, I thought that my second mission must be the oiling the motor,idler wheel's bearing and platters bearing.

Now, here is my problems that I need your help :

1) I thought that, the motor's lubricant already dry or lost the quality after 45 years at least. And also motor works noisy. So I pulled it out from the place, first I put spray cleaner then I put few drops of Singer oil than 10/40 motor oil.
It works well but still there is a noise while it is working and even when I re-install it to its place, noise is increasing.
I couldn't open the motor, that's why I just oil it from out side.

Do you have suggestions to oil it ? Do I need to open the motor totally and oil the motor bearing? Is it worth ?

last week, I open the whole motor, at the back side of the motor, where is motor's main shaft and ball-bearing, I found that something in dark brown color dust. It looks like coffee pulp. Probably there were a gasket or liquid seal gasket before and with the time, it is almost dead. I am not really sure, does anyone knows what is there before ?







This is the most important problem for me right now, I will be really very happy if you can help me.


2) Idler wheel's rubber side is not straight, it is swinging when it is working. I checked internet but not possible to find replacement, do you have any suggestions to straight it ?


3) As you can see from the photo at below, the motor pulley,idler wheel and belt's pulley's chassis staying not straight, it is leaning to right side a bit. Is it normaly ? I found that this chassis have 4 legs and there is 4 springs and specially 2 right side springs are down then the left sides that's why it is leaning righty. Does it means that these springs loose their properties and have to replace with the new ones ?

[Wilhelm]

Hi,
you posted most of these questions at another forum already(audiokarma) and I did answer most of them. Any response from you - no!

Regards
Wilhelm

[ElTurco]

Hi,
you posted most of these questions at another forum already(audiokarma) and I did answer most of them. Any response from you - no!

Regards
Wilhelm

Dear Wilhelm,

First of all, please read the topic on AudioKarma carefully, I have reply that first of "thank you" !!! this is my message : "Thanks for your information."
And then I asked another question there which there were not any answer there !!!

My main question is was, is there any GASKET at the back side of the motor or not ? because there is 4 washer backside of the motor which go on the shaft of the motor. If there is no GASKET, is it possible to put just GREASE (vaseline as you recommended) and close the back side of the motor ?

What I want to be sure is ; these washers stays on the shaft free. Only there is a ring on shaft after 2-3 mm. So when I install the motor on the place, I am afraid that, if these washers fall down on this ring and make noise or block the motor ? Or which I am not sure is, just put the grease and close the cover and this grease will keep these washers at their place or not ?

As you can see, your reply is not help my problem what I asked for help ! If I don't see your reply about my exact question/problem on audiokarma, I am so sorry. ANyway thank you very much again.



But your reply is

[Wilhelm]

Sorry, didn't see your thank you response from May the 14th.

Regards
Wilhelm

[ElTurco]

Hello,

Already disrupt the motor 2 times, oiled and clean all of motor but when I collected again and run, still there is slightly noise coming from the motor.

There is 3 metal washer and fixing ring on shaft, I suspected one of them making this noise.

Any idea ? Anybody open the motor of PCS 5 - PCS 52 series motor ? Will appriciate if someone help me.

thanks

[wickerge]

Hello ElTurco,
since the motor is identical in all PCS 5, maybe it makes more sense to look for a replacement motor?

Best Regards
Gerhard

[ElTurco]

Hello ElTurco,
since the motor is identical in all PCS 5, maybe it makes more sense to look for a replacement motor?

Best Regards
Gerhard

Dear Gerhard,

Thanks for your advice but this motor is almost working, without any problem. Only problem is noise, I am sure I just make something wrong. I just need advice of it.

Anyway to replace motor is very difficult, to find similar replacement.

Anyway thanks

[wickerge]

Hello ElTurco,
probably no one of us ever took the motor apart, so what is following is only guesswork.

The older turntables (PC3, PC4) have simple bush bearings, and they have foam material in a cap over the bearing to keep oil for constant lubrication. Maybe the brown dust in your bearing was something like that. If the PCS 5 has ball bearings these could generate some noise if they are slightly worn. You could check that by filling some grease into the bearings.

Best Regards
Gerhard

[ElTurco]

Hello ElTurco,
probably no one of us ever took the motor apart, so what is following is only guesswork.

The older turntables (PC3, PC4) have simple bush bearings, and they have foam material in a cap over the bearing to keep oil for constant lubrication. Maybe the brown dust in your bearing was something like that. If the PCS 5 has ball bearings these could generate some noise if they are slightly worn. You could check that by filling some grease into the bearings.

Best Regards
Gerhard

Dear Gerhard,
Really thanks for your information. Before last run of the motor, I also think that may be ball or ball's bed worned that's why I bought new 4mm ball and even I think that if bearing side is worn that's why I also buy 4,5mm ball too for compansate the worn.

I just suspect that, these 3 washers on shaft start to turn with shaft and make the noise, I bought liquid seal to fix these washers for not turn when motor runs. Lets see.

I will let you know if it works.

[Racing]

El T

Ballbearings doesn´t work that way. Their running premises are very tightly controlled.
Ie;just replacing individual steels for a given bearing is pointless.

Ballbearings always run on a race. Ie; a ballbearing normally has an inner and an outer race.
Check these for wear. ANY and all signable wear means direct replacement. If the actual race has turned slightly dull/matte...that is ok-within reason-and can be polished clean with very fine grade steel wool.

The actual steels,balls of the bearing,are basically replacement items. However,their circumferance is a reaaaaaaaally tight ordeal.
When SKF for instance manufacture a ballbearng the actual steels are sorted by 1/1000mm,and that isn´t even for close tolerance bearings.

Ball bearings come in a very wide array of models-even for given diameter axles and holes. Please read up a little if need be.

However..
As the stock motors for these turntables are steady state and,from a relative point of view,low load it might be an idea to have a machine shop look into replacing the bearings as a whole.
In later years a line of bearings has been marketed under the name "Glycodur". These are lined bearing of similar type you find in engines et al,just with MUCH closer tolerances and what´s more MUCH lower friction AND higher load capacity.
Come in radial and axial form.

Having someone turn inserts for you to make the Glycodur shells fit wouldn´t be the end of the world i presume.

That said.
If you opt to service the stock bearings please be adviced that they by now are approx 50yrs old.
In short,replace them as units.

You do NO replace steels of 4mm with 4,5mm ones on a whim...no offense.

On older setups (this does not pertain to turntables in particular) it is rather common that various backelite and what have you not shims has been used to set axial thrust freeplay.
These shims can readily be replaced by plastic dittos. Again,check a machine shop (which goes for the complete bearings as well)

[ElTurco]

El T

Ballbearings doesn´t work that way. Their running premises are very tightly controlled.
Ie;just replacing individual steels for a given bearing is pointless.

Ballbearings always run on a race. Ie; a ballbearing normally has an inner and an outer race.
Check these for wear. ANY and all signable wear means direct replacement. If the actual race has turned slightly dull/matte...that is ok-within reason-and can be polished clean with very fine grade steel wool.

The actual steels,balls of the bearing,are basically replacement items. However,their circumferance is a reaaaaaaaally tight ordeal.
When SKF for instance manufacture a ballbearng the actual steels are sorted by 1/1000mm,and that isn´t even for close tolerance bearings.

Ball bearings come in a very wide array of models-even for given diameter axles and holes. Please read up a little if need be.

However..
As the stock motors for these turntables are steady state and,from a relative point of view,low load it might be an idea to have a machine shop look into replacing the bearings as a whole.
In later years a line of bearings has been marketed under the name "Glycodur". These are lined bearing of similar type you find in engines et al,just with MUCH closer tolerances and what´s more MUCH lower friction AND higher load capacity.
Come in radial and axial form.

Having someone turn inserts for you to make the Glycodur shells fit wouldn´t be the end of the world i presume.

That said.
If you opt to service the stock bearings please be adviced that they by now are approx 50yrs old.
In short,replace them as units.

You do NO replace steels of 4mm with 4,5mm ones on a whim...no offense.

On older setups (this does not pertain to turntables in particular) it is rather common that various backelite and what have you not shims has been used to set axial thrust freeplay.
These shims can readily be replaced by plastic dittos. Again,check a machine shop (which goes for the complete bearings as well)

Dear Racing, thanks for the information.

To change the ball 4.5 mm i/o original 4mm not my main purpose. The idea about it cames because of this motor works without oil and I don't know how long they work it without oil. There is not race at lower side of the motor. There is only race for ball on shaft and if the motor works without oil long time and pressure on ball, I thought that, ball or the race on shaft can be worned !!! So to compansate this worn, you can use 4.25mm or 4.5mm balls, why not ?

Anyway, this is not the main problem, first I have to find where this noise coming. Lets see

Anyway thanks again for the info.

[Racing]

I´m not absolutely sure,but tip of the day is to check american e-bay for a replacement motor.
Yep. I know..sounds like a bad joke,but please bare with me..


As you might or might not know i work on a lot of tubeamps. Mainstay of them are for instrument use.
I just recently bought an old Schaller KV-50,the earlier all tube version from back in 1966. (it is so stamped within)
Anyways.
This amplifier combo contains a reverb,and Schallers reverb is very much like the ones made by Italian Binson and at one time fabled as they were used by Pink Floyd amongst others.
Well...



It works off of a magnetic disc...and look there to the right
Yep.
That is a german made Papst motor. The same motor type you´ve got in your PCS. (I own a PCS too,mine works well however).
That motor is named KLZ 14.50 and came in various setups at the time. It was widely used in everything from reverbs to turntables..

I happen to know this as the motor in that reverb was shot and i bought an exact replacement off of US e-bay at the tone of approx 45-50 euros.

´N yes. They are the 220VAC ones...

[ElTurco]

I´m not absolutely sure,but tip of the day is to check american e-bay for a replacement motor.
Yep. I know..sounds like a bad joke,but please bare with me..


As you might or might not know i work on a lot of tubeamps. Mainstay of them are for instrument use.
I just recently bought an old Schaller KV-50,the earlier all tube version from back in 1966. (it is so stamped within)
Anyways.
This amplifier combo contains a reverb,and Schallers reverb is very much like the ones made by Italian Binson and at one time fabled as they were used by Pink Floyd amongst others.
Well...



It works off of a magnetic disc...and look there to the right
Yep.
That is a german made Papst motor. The same motor type you´ve got in your PCS. (I own a PCS too,mine works well however).
That motor is named KLZ 14.50 and came in various setups at the time. It was widely used in everything from reverbs to turntables..

I happen to know this as the motor in that reverb was shot and i bought an exact replacement off of US e-bay at the tone of approx 45-50 euros.

´N yes. They are the 220VAC ones...

Dear Racing, thanks for your advice. Firstly I try to fix this motor if can not and still nosie, I will look for the replacement.

Thanks

[wickerge]

Hallo zusammen,
habe gerade ein ähnliches Problem mit einem PCS5-Motor. Was die Mechanik angeht, sehe ich jetzt etwas klarer. Der Motor ist komplett gleitgelagert, ein Kugellager im klassischen Sinn gibt es nicht. Es gibt lediglich eine Kugel, auf der sich die Motorwelle abstützt und die ihrerseits in einer trichterförmigen Vertiefung in einem Kunststoffteil liegt. Ein Lagerungskonzept, wie man es auch von Plattentellern kennt. Mein Motor lief ungleichmäßig und scheppernd, und bei genauem Hinsehen funkt es in der Wicklung. Das Wicklungspaket ist aber fest mit dem hinteren Lagerschild vergossen und die funkende Stelle dadurch unzugänglich. Ein Anschluss hat mit dem Ohmmeter gemessen auch keinen Durchgang mehr. Also wohl nicht zu reparieren.

Bei dem Motor von El Turco fehlte wohl das Kunststoffteil, welches die Kugel trägt. Dadurch war die Motorwelle in senkrechter Richtung nicht richtig gelagert und machte Geräusche.

Herzliche Grüße
Gerhard

[wickerge]

Hallo zusammen,
jetzt will ich noch kurz berichten, wie ich mein Problem mit der durchgebrannten Wicklung gelöst habe. Den Motor gibt es zwar in den USA noch zu kaufen, da ist man mit Versand und Zoll aber mit über 100€ dabei. Man findet den Motor übrigens leichter mit dem Suchbegriff "Klemt Echolette" - wurde darin wohl auch verwendet.
Über die Papst Kennnummer bin ich auf einen ähnlichen Motor aus dem Tonband TK20 gestossen, der deutlich günstiger zu haben war.



Rechts der Grundig-Motor, links der defekte aus dem PCS 5

Meine ursprüngliche Hoffnung war, dass ich nur den Rotor tauschen muss, die am Stator hängende Befestingungsplatte hat die identischen Maße. Leider war die Achslagerung im Grundig-Motor ca 15 mm länger, so dass erstmal nicht zusammen passte. Aber da ich nichts zu verlieren hatte, habe ich das überstehende Stück mit dem eingepressten Sinterlager einfach abgesägt. Dann das abgesägte Stück geschlitzt, um das Lager heraus zu bekommen. Das habe ich dann in den gekürzten Stator neu eingepresst. War alles ein bisschen improvisiert, aber der Motor läuft! Hilfreich war, das Grundig die gleichen Kabelfarben verwendet hat wie Braun (bzw Papst die gleichen an beide geliefert hat), so dass ich dort nicht lange herumprobieren musste.

Hier noch als Ergänzung zum ursprünglichen Post die Lagerung in senkrechter Richtung beim Braun und beim Grundig:







Gleiche Prinzip, aber im Detail anders umgesetzt - wobei mir die Grundig-Lösung eher etwas besser gefallen hat. Die Lagerdeckel sind jeweils umgedreht, damit man sieht, wie sich die Kugel abstützt.

Herzliche Grüße
Gerhard